The EU and the Euro crisis

Lord Soley

In the Queen’s speech there was an interesting contribution by Lord Owen. He warned of a growing crisis that will pose a major challenge to the UK. If the Euro does disintegrate then we will be badly affected but if it continues it will only do so as part of an ever closer union.
In other speeches outside the House Lord Mandelson and Ed Balls MP have made similar points. The UK will finally have to choose – are we part of an ever closer union or are we outside?
You can read Lord Owen’s speech here (he spoke at 3.42pm):
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201213/ldhansrd/text/120510-0002.htm

Any views?

37 comments for “The EU and the Euro crisis

  1. MilesJSD
    14/05/2012 at 9:21 pm

    Global Cooperation is failing, not just the EU;

    and the Eastern Big Three of China, Japan and South-Korea are about to take the whole of the Eastern world into their own closed “Free Trade Alliance”

    so how on Earth is “closer union of European Nation-States” going to turn that overarching ‘mudslide’ upward in the right long-term sustainworthy direction ?

  2. Lord Blagger
    14/05/2012 at 10:05 pm

    Owen is about the only politician that has admitted to making a mess of debt in the UK.

    So what do you say about your involvement in 7,000 bn off debt, 6,000 bn off the books?

    In or out of the EU is an irrelevance, we are screwed one way or the other.

    I suspect that the Greeks might ask for those in the EU to be extradited to face trial for fraud.

    Expect the EU to put themselves above the law, like politicans close to home.

    • maude elwes
      15/05/2012 at 6:35 pm

      Here is the beginning of change and Nationalization is where it starts. Nationalize banks, utilities, gas and oil. A return to the policies of socialized necessities.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPmav4TufY

      This has to be the basis of getting rid of the crisis we have colluded in giving ourselves.

      The free market is a farce and those with power cannot be trusted with our lives.

      • 16/05/2012 at 10:04 am

        Nationalisation? How old are you Maude? We have tried that and it failed and if you did not notice and before you mention it so did its parent, communism. To an extent, we still have nationalism in the UK but we call it the public sector.

  3. Chris K
    14/05/2012 at 11:21 pm

    The first party (Labour or Conservative) to offer an EU referendum (a proper one, no strings attached) WILL win the next general election.

    Who’s it going to be?

    • Twm O'r Nant
      17/05/2012 at 4:52 pm

      The first party (Labour or Conservative) to offer an EU referendum (a proper one, no strings attached) WILL win the next general election.

      and only dogs or monkeys for candidates.

  4. 15/05/2012 at 10:25 am

    A fundamental argument for businesses of a certain size is to move to the use of “preferred suppliers lists”. From my perspective this how the EU has behaved for years and emerging economies are following suit. Unfortunately, it is still easier to trade with the EU because of one simple constant, time difference. People are inherently lazy and will always go for the easy option only to discover that easy and hard are a dichotomy. Ultimately, to succeed we need to offer the rest of the world something better than what everyone else is offering and create demand for GB PLC. If we can ever get back to this mindset (something William Hague was alluding to in the Telegraph; Hard Work) then we will make huge strides. To use some well worn but very pertinent clichés “don’t keep all of your eggs in one basket” and “in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king”, regardless of Lord Jones and his opinion in the same paper saying of Hague “it’s a bit rich”. GB needs to diversify, and staying in the EU club is a balancing act of nerve over need and whilst we are playing happy families with Merkel and her clueless chums we should be working on increasing the popularity of our brand in the emerging markets.

  5. Dave H
    15/05/2012 at 11:22 am

    The EU is micromanaging us to death, or at least to bankruptcy. Its answer to any issue is more regulation and central control, which increases the cost of everything because inevitably there is not only the cost of compliance but the cost of demonstrating compliance and the cost of the officials whose job it is to check compliance.

    Britain has usually managed to steer a middle course between the hire-and-fire US market where big corporations hold the power, and the more left-wing EU countries where hiring is easy but firing is not, even with good reason, and it’s the state and unions who hold the power.

    I much prefer an environment where there are a few things I must do, a few things I must not do, and everything else is optional, and I don’t believe the EU will ever give us that. Anything that is not forbidden will be compulsory, or will at least need official permission.

    The government should be working to untangle us from the EU so that if it falls apart, we’re well-prepared, not pump even more money that we haven’t got into the enterprise.

    • Lord Blagger
      15/05/2012 at 12:51 pm

      Your assumption is that the EU is the cause, and by isolating the UK, we will be OK.

      Now, what if politicians and the UK are just like the EU, doing exactly the same things.

      Frying pans and fire spring to mind.

      • Dave H
        15/05/2012 at 6:21 pm

        Small steps – the whole system is broken, but you have to begin clearing it somewhere, and the useless pile on the top, weighing everything else down is a good place to start.

    • maude elwes
      15/05/2012 at 1:09 pm

      What a bunch of clowns!

      The one and only thing to do is unite with Europe as one unit and nationalise everything in sight. Banks, untilities, airways, everything we can get our hands on.

      Only an idiot clings on to the con man in the hope he is going to save him.

      • Dave H
        15/05/2012 at 6:19 pm

        Well, we obviously differ as to the identity of the conmen, although that’s not to say the domestic ones are necessarily any better than the European ones.

      • Lord Blagger
        15/05/2012 at 7:46 pm

        Nationalisation means putting the con men in charge. The current incumbents are con men. They have create the debt. Why do you think giving everything to them (or allowing them to steal the lot) is a solution?

        • maude elwes
          16/05/2012 at 11:33 am

          @LB:

          Ruthless war must be waged against those who have injured the common welfare. Userers, profiteers, etc., must be punished, whoever they are. Materialist enactment must be replaced by counter measures and Nationalsation is the immediate answer, if we are to survive this crisis at all.

          Your analogy is off beam. Although we are definitely run by crooks, we can oust them, and replace them with those who will and must put the public welfare first.

          http://www.ftadviser.com/2011/10/28/investments/uk/nationalisation-works-Qk4q7vFFITEH0JjqabxLaP/article.html

          All confiscation of gains made via the public purse and nationalisation of industry necessary for the public wefare in accordance with national requirement, is an urgent requirement. An enactment of law to expropriate the owners, without compensation of any corporate or land, needed for the common purpose. Utilities, banks, transport, fuels and so on, has to be in the hands of the people. Those who presently control these necessities are without principle and are untrustworthy.

          Can you not see this is paramount to the well being of the nation?

          We are in dire straits, so pull the finger out and get moving before it is too late.

          • Lord Blagger
            16/05/2012 at 10:06 pm

            Ruthless war must be waged against those who have injured the common welfare.

            ==========

            Agreed.

            What you fail to realize is that its politicians who have stolen money, spent it, and left massive debts. 7,000 bn of debts.

            So you’re allocation is 230,000 pounds, rising with inflation.

            Can you pay your share?

            Can you pay the shares of others less fortunate?

            Even if you can pay your share, you’re in the wealthy bracket.

            The consequences are dire.

            What you’ve done however, is swallow the twaddle from those in Westminster that its other people who are to blame.

            Bankers, Greeks, those nasty people in Europe.

            Swap banker/Greek/European for the word Jew, and you see their mentality.

            For example.

            http://www.leftfootforward.org/category/sustainable-economy/

            The vast wealth locked up Jews, used only for gambling on the stock market or for paying out bonuses that dwarf anything ordinary people see in their wage packets, needs to be put to good use.

            And a Tax on Jews would be a great way to do it.

            Straight swap of words as outlined above.

            Adolf would have been proud.

          • Lord Blagger
            19/05/2012 at 8:45 am

            Ruthless war must be waged against those who have injured the common welfare. Userers, profiteers, etc., must be punished, whoever they are. Materialist enactment must be replaced by counter measures and Nationalsation is the immediate answer, if we are to survive this crisis at all.

            Your analogy is off beam. Although we are definitely run by crooks, we can oust them, and replace them with those who will and must put the public welfare first.

            ====================

            1. So whose money do you want to be taken to be given to you, and how much do you want to be taken?

            2. What if the target of the money is you?

            3. You haven’t said how you are going to pay your fair share of government debt? Can you afford to pay 230,000 pounds? Can you afford even the interest? About 10K this year alone?

            4. As for ousting its irrelevant. You can oust who ever you want, if you can. However, once elected they will do what ever they want to do. If your aim is to control policy, and I presume that is the case, then you aren’t allowed that. You are only allowed to select the next crook.

            It’s bust. Pure and simple.

  6. 15/05/2012 at 1:08 pm

    @ Lord Blagger is that comment for Dave H?

    • Lord Blagger
      15/05/2012 at 7:45 pm

      Yes

  7. Croft
    15/05/2012 at 1:17 pm

    “The UK will finally have to choose – are we part of an ever closer union or are we outside?”

    But who will choose? Past history is politicians not the public.

    • maude elwes
      15/05/2012 at 2:25 pm

      @Croft:

      And politicians are simply puppets of vested interest.

  8. 15/05/2012 at 3:53 pm

    Everyone has a vested interest, it’s just a matter of “how much”…..and the cynical meek shall inherit the earth!

    • maude elwes
      15/05/2012 at 5:03 pm

      @procvexperts:

      And here is a vested interest you may like to get hold of.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIruCBopmfo

      • 16/05/2012 at 9:39 am

        @maude is that the best you can offer? We all know the mess that the banking sector made of the world and how government was complicit but you are slightly off topic. The topic is Europe and importantly the Euro and while that is tied to banking (unfortunately for now, everything still is) the real subject is how we can diversify our markets. The banking sector will be a subject for another day.

        • maude elwes
          16/05/2012 at 4:28 pm

          @procvexperts:

          Brilliant response, as with most of those tied up in the mess created, you want to deflect from the real issue, the cause of the financial collapse and why it is allowed to continue. Uncomfortable isn’t it to return to the criminals who created it? And ask why they are not facing umpteen charges for fraud. Then extradited to the Congo so they can spend life in one of those primitive jails.

          That aside, you cannot diversify away from toxic currencies and all currencies are toxic now because the world and its financial markets are polluted to the extreme. What we have cannot work. Austerity is akin to throwing a gallon of water on a forest fire.

          Internal trade should begin by using barter units, cutting out present finance altogether. Sidetracking banks to lie in their own detritus.

          And you being the bright speak on the block, if nationalisation didn’t work and the people didn’t benefit from it, why are they still using it in countries where they are doing somewhat better than us? And how did it pull Germany out of the capitalism steeped them in after WW2?

          And quite aside from what you are gushing here, there will be no choice when push comes to shove. Its simply better to get started early.

          Europe’s best move is, as I wrote and as yet has to be put up. Wait for it, start making moves to rid itself of US involvment entirely. That will be the one and only way we, as a continent, will be free to rebuild life for our people. Once set loose from the crazed interferance and imposition we have under the weight carried by having too close a connection with rampant Capitalist Corporations and organisations determined to reduce this part of the world to human slavery.

          I am sure you have seen and know about the Corporation and its motives.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62_BpZy4cjA&list=UUahIgg3kjLVwvGyQbjbxYAA&feature=plcp

          • Gareth Howell
            20/05/2012 at 8:29 am

            ME,
            I can’t say that I am convinced by/of the value of the visual image as a way of persuading.

            So many people are easily persuaded by it that I never watch it, or view You tube for such a purpose, nor have I ever looked at ME’s copious UTube links.

            The digital image of written words (which these all are)is rather finer; what you might call the small print.

  9. 15/05/2012 at 3:54 pm

    And for the record: Yes, Lord Owen has a point.

  10. MilesJSD
    16/05/2012 at 3:29 pm

    From “politicians decide, not The People”
    and
    “people are inherently lazy”

    please bring your minds (and bodies) up-to-date by reading, learning, and inwardly-digesting:

    1) “Awareness Heals” (Shafarman)
    2) “The Busy Person’s Guide To Better Movement” (Wildman)
    3) “Effort” (Laban & Lawrence)
    4) “How To Win Every Argument” (Pirie)
    5) The Method III 5-steps guidelines, copy and print-out from non-profit citizen’s websites http://www.lifefresh.co.uk or http://www.minorityofone.net
    6) “Mindset” (Dweck)
    7) Perceptual Self-Control Theory (WT Powers et al)

    the key points being that
    1) people inherently wish to become more efficient in both their body-exertions and their mind-functionings.
    (People are NOT “inherently lazy”, nor inherently “greedy”)

    2) Perceptual Self-Control beats Reinforcement Theory ‘hands-down’ when it comes to
    (i) doing the job well
    (ii) being satisfied with that success, without having to go on ‘strike’ or other ‘blackmail’ tactics, strategies, and warmongerings for higher and higher pay-packets, legal-protections, privileges, and luxuries ****

    (**** it would not be at all ‘wrong’ to see the latter four excesses as being majorly exercised by and for the straight-As multi-academic and professionally blinkered “scarce-elite” & the similarly blindfolded top governancially-empowered politically-correct few —

    but once you (and especially those elite-few) have brought yourselves up-to-date with the facts and human-enablements given in the above self-improvement and mutual-community-improvement publications, you (and they) will no longer be “blindfolded”, “lazy”, “unable to exercise suatainworthy democratic power”.
    ————

    In short then, the vast majority of normally healthy and sustain-worthy-lifestyling People want to be living, and learning, cooperatively, with all the skills and enablements of a “waste not want not” neighbourhood, society, and civilisation.

  11. Gareth Howell
    16/05/2012 at 3:52 pm

    I am inclined to side with new Labour on the question of “nationalisation”.

    If you knew how chaotic ticketing is for a measly 200 miles with the different rail companies of the UK, you might not be so critical, and be more prepared to re-nationalise.

    On the subject of the creation of nations and supernations, the EU one of the latter, a microcosm comparison would be the FRY(Former Republic of Yugolsavia) so effectively created by Marshal Tito, during and after the WW2, and so effectively destroyed by Milosevich, the anarcho-syndicalist, from 1991 onwards.

    Some men are capable of creativity in political organisation and public administration. Others are only capable of destruction.

    If you want to destroy the EU 27 then you are
    one with Mr Slob Milosevich. He destroyed a nation.

    You want to destroy a supernation.

    Perhaps like Rudyard Kipling, the pro WW1 campaigner, you will destroy yourselves at the same time. It would be proper justice.

    • Chris K
      16/05/2012 at 8:38 pm

      Gareth, I can’t have read your post properly.

      For surely you can’t really be comparing people opposed to the European Union to mass murderers?

      • maude elwes
        17/05/2012 at 12:48 pm

        @Chris K:

        Well, if that is what Gareth was getting at, and I don’tknow if it was, what is the story behind his thinking?

        Who is opposed to the European Union, which like it or not, does include us? We are told by our newspapers and media on an ever widening daily basis, the majority of the UK public wants free of the EU. Well now where does that poll get its sentiment from. We recently had a by election and instead of a massive vote for the ‘get out of Europe party UKIP’ we see a run for the psuedo sociasist, ‘New Labour.’ Who the world sees as the pro Europe party. No mention of that in our biased propaganda machines though. Too uncomfortable to broach. The rich men don’t like that analogy, doesn’t fit their modus operandi.

        As we see from many people who write and speak of the downfall of the Euro, sabotage of the currency, generated by US Wall Street operators, with US goverment suport, is offered as the mover and shaker as the Euro was seen as a threat to the dollar and had to be done away with.

        Add that to the horror that Greece faces and how we are constantly told to swallow the Greek people are at the back of our downfall. Which all of us who can think at all, know has to be lunacy of the sectioning level. The Greek men and woman could not have created the mess they find themselves in, they are simply scapegoats. And the effects on this nation is severe. Some are dying as a result.

        Listen to this man in full, as he tells it as he sees it.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9E9smroxB4

        And so, if instigators or chaos and war mongers get to do what they plan, and that is or was the destruction of Europe, resulting in war on that continant, is that not mass murder?

        Now this guy also tells us that the financial exposure was far greater in 2008. So why the pressue now? And why are Californians and those in Las Vegas, who are in as deep as Greece, if not more so, not being called on to leave their US currency and not being threatened with the same pressures Greece and the Europeans are?

        Listen to this.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-ImclSkS0U

        And this guys view is, the US dollar is finished. So that should inspire Europe to get its own house in order as a United European entity before we are led down the war amongst ourselves road.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXzJpi4E30U

        • Gar Howell
          21/05/2012 at 9:43 am

          Chris K:

          Well, if that is what Gareth was getting at, and

          No but I am saying that the potential for mass murder on the destruction of a supernation is 27 times as great as that for the single Nation of the FRY(former Republic of Yugoslavia.)

          It just depends who the clown is who tries to do it, and when.

          I have thought for many years, along with quite a few others, that the potential for a division of the existing EU into two supernations is always there, (probably north and south). That may be the next “Change”.

          The political map of Europe over the last 400 years or so, has changed regularly, and there is no reason to suppose that it won’t continue to do so.

          The hope is that it will do so peacefully and with plenty of creative negotiation, rather than with destruction and death, in FRY.

          Milosevich started off with his plans for Greater Serbia in 1991, with peaceful intentions, but when he didn’t get his way, it turned ugly.

          He also thought and hoped, he would bring the rest of Europe to its knees, viz outbreak of WW1, so he thought he was doing us a “favour” as well.

          Perhaps Maude is hoping some bright spark will do the same for EU27 as Milosevich did for the FRY?

          Regarding Greece, they are also members of other local supranational groups which do not have quite the same market place, or power as the EU. One of them is in alliance with Turkey/bulgaria and others.

          Even if Greece pulled out of EU, they would still have NATO/US bases in their country, so international order would not be effected; the national order might.

          • maude elwes
            22/05/2012 at 2:31 pm

            @GAr:

            What you are saying is no matter what happens to Greece they will be subjugated by the US and its military machine, thereby, taking control of their life.

            Where you are out of touch with what I am trying to express here, is, there is no such thing any longer as a nation state. As much as you and others here cling to this idea.

            We are all controlled by Capitalists. They are stateless and have no illusions about what their objectives are. The enslavement of the people, akin to the Greeks, is the name of that game. Therefore, no matter how we wriggle and squirm, we will be in the same situation as Greece currently is if the penny doesn’t drop here. And fast.

            Which is why the only way out is nationalisation. That way the control is returned to the governments, who, in a democracies are held to account by the people. The conspiracy of Capitalist control is systematically removing the power from the people by each boom and bust they create. Until we will be totally dominated by Capitalist dictators.

            Japan just recently nationalised Tepco. Which is their nuclear concern. So they have got a part of the message at least.

    • Lord Blagger
      16/05/2012 at 9:59 pm

      Look at what the government hasn’t done with the NHS computer system.

      Now apply that and its costs to the rail system and you have a recipe for major disaster on top of the current debt mess.

  12. Gareth Howell
    22/05/2012 at 2:24 pm

    South West trains has also just commissioned a new computer system, but the one thing that will never be commissioned is the guards who
    collect the tickets, although that is not their opinion.

    I was recently advised that there is

    “no such thing as a return ticket” any more which did not entirely surprise me, supposing that all train tickets in future are merely a
    “one way ticket to the blues” perhaps?

    One thing is certain that if you buy two single tickets at the cheapest possible price you do not get home until the next morning after having slept on a station for 8 hours while waiting for the “next” train, next morning!

    That, chairman of SWT, is commissioning!!!!!!! ??

  13. Lord Blagger
    23/05/2012 at 8:15 am

    We are all controlled by Capitalists. They are stateless and have no illusions about what their objectives are

    ==========

    No, we are controlled by the state.

    Capitalists can’t pass laws. That’s politicians and the unelected non democratic peers.

    You completely fail to realise that the real problem is state debts. That’s isn’t anything to do with capitalism. It is to do with the state and the fraudsters in power.

    Let me show you the difference and why its fraud. Take pensions.

    1. Private pension run by a company. The capitalist example. Here companies have to show the assets against the liabilities, and when there is a short fall make up the difference.

    2. The state. No liabilities are shown on the accounts for the state pension. The payments up front for the future pension are treated as profits and spent.

    If a company behaved as the state does, the directors would rightly be jailed.

    There is no capitalist controlling the state and its fraud. It’s purely politicians.

    Where were the capitalists controlling the fraud there?

    • maude elwes
      23/05/2012 at 11:40 am

      @LB:

      The state debt is our debt. They have passed the ‘Capitalist’ debt to the public purse. We therefore are in hock to the company store. ‘Another day older and your deeper in debt.’

      What is it you are not following here LB? It’s really very simple. This little snippet is called Capitalism: A love story. It’s about greed, lack of democracy and absolute power. You may like it a lot of your comments are in this story.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WUqFCZDaOE

      If not, and you are like Gareth, who doesn’t like seeing it as well as hearing it, her is a paper on it. Give it a try.

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470756119.part5/pdf

  14. Lord Blagger
    23/05/2012 at 8:09 pm

    They have passed the ‘Capitalist’ debt to the public purse.

    =============

    No. There is no passing of debt. Where was the market that said to the government you have to have debt.

    e.g. If I say to you borrow trillions, and you borrow trillions, who is the idiot? Me for saying you can borrow trillions, or you for borrowing it? You are the idiot, you are the criminal for taking out debts you can’t pay.

    Same as with the banks. Some banks get into a mess. Those banks go to the plonker in chief in the government and say, give us money or bad things will happen. People will think you are an idiot. Give us lots of money and the idiots will think you are a savior. Who is the idiot? The banks for asking or GB for handing over other people’s cash.

    Capitalism isn’t about democracy. It is about efficient use of money. Politicians aren’t about democracy. They are about stuffing their boots with other people’s money with the pretence of democracy and the Lords is a prime example of that.

    Finally, the state debt isn’t my debt. It is politicians debts. Screw ‘we are all in it together’. Until politicians are rotting in prison for their frauds, or dangling from the lamp posts in Parliament square, I do not owe a penny to clear up their mess.

    That’s why its telling. I’ve repeatedly posted with the evidence as to the true state of government debt. In spite of lots of failed MPs posting here, not a single one has challeged that. They know that its f**ked. They now that the debt will never be paid. And since the debt is to the people of this country, that means they know the consequences of their actions.

    You can kiss your civil service pension, state pension, state second pension, annuity, and all the rest goodbye. It’s all gone Greek.

    Don’t confuse what Gordon Brown and others have done with capitalism. Rent seeking and bailouts is socialism.

    Time for some capitalism and Stalinist purging of those responsible.

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