Ukraine

Lord Soley

There was a debate on the Ukraine yesterday and you can read my comments and other participants here: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldhansrd/text/140318-0001.htm#14031876000361

I do think the present situation is dangerous and will not end quickly. The east European countries are worried and so are some of the other countries in the Caucuses.
It is the way that Putin is playing the nationalist card that creates the danger of losing control of ethnic feelings in a number of ex Soviet states.
Do remember that just as many people are currently saying ‘we don’t want a war’ so the same was said in 1913 – there are some worrying parallels.

On an interesting aside, as chairman of the Mary Seacole Memorial Statue Appeal I arranged for the sculptor, Martin Jennings, to go to the Crimea a few months ago to take a cast of the land there for the Seacole memorial – I am very relieved that we got in just in time!

9 comments for “Ukraine

  1. maude elwes
    19/03/2014 at 3:54 pm

    I read it, Lord Soley, all of it.

    And then I remembered what I had read today on the Guardian comments page. I thought it would be good to put it up for all to see and then have them think what exactly it is we are backing in the Ukraine.

    What I read from your pages was the defence by the House of Lords of a rabble (whomever they were funded by) who overthrew an elected government by force. In fact anarchists. You claim it was a corrupt government and that those in power had criminality on their hands so they had it coming. Now that seems a really strange allegiance to a bunch of oddballs, as we have a huge persuasion of those grimy individuals in our own parliament, either covered up for or played down. And we don’t have the full story on any of them from gropers and rapist to thieves. Could this be why you feel this kind of carry on is okay to back in another country?

    Then you support the guy who set himself up, with the permission of Nuland and her pals, (her F the EU phone call established that) without one vote on his side because the US President says so. (We in this country didn’t take part in electing the US President) Now why would you and the other Lords do that I wonder? And I ask that because this is a new one on me. Should we now back a group of anarchists that throws over our hated government when the time is ripe and they put themselves up as our leader without ever being elected or even known of? But, I suppose you are saying that because you go along with Catherine Ashton as a ‘great’ unelected nobody of any consequence, put in a position of authority in the EU, and you applaud her for her ability to get that far without even leading the local council in her day. It is cringe worthy to say the least. This dope is taking us into a very dicey position and no one has hardly any knowledge of the lightweight. Is this really a position someone with as little formal experience as this one has, except for her days as a ban the bomber in CND and a Blair creature cutie, shoved in anywhere he needed a yes woman.

    Of course I suppose she learned how to serve in this capacity by getting a degree in sociology at Wiggan Mining Technical College.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Ashton

    Here is what the commenter wrote for us all to see. Victor Whisky is one of the American’s I wrote of who has to come to a British newspaper in order to freely comment and know it will be printed and not refused because some corporate advertiser may not like its content.

    ****

    VictorWhisky NaturalOutswing

    19 March 2014 1:22pm
    Recommended
    28

    “Western democracy is also compromised, but not as much”

    Really?
    The supreme court put in Bush and his cabal of chicken hawks including Chaney, the American Darth Vader, who then proceeded on a war crusade against the Muslims in the middle east despite the massive protests not only in this country but all over the world. Obama promised to reverse course but did the exact opposite, not only expanding the war in Afghanistan and funding Al Qaeda mercenaries in Syria, he appointed himself executioner by drone killing more innocent women and children than terrorists. The US is not only waging a war in the entire middle east to control oil, it is also fomenting war in Africa. The US has nearly 1000 military bases controlling virtually the entire globe and building more in Africa. How many military bases does Russia have outside its territory?

    The Wall Street too big to fail gangsters nearly brought down the entire US if not the world’s economy. Trillions disappeared causing the Feds to print trillions more to replace it, which my children and grand children will pay in higher taxes for the rest of their lives. Where did all those trillions go? Who has them? People on Wall Street like to say it wasn’t there to begin with, it was was only made up figures. Really? Is that why the Feds had to print a lot more cash to replace the cash that disappeared? An you think Russia is corrupt.

    Bush prevented any opposition demonstrations and made sure the police enclosed them in a pen blocks away from where he was to appear. Occupy Wall street protesters were pepper sprayed and arrested by police all over this country. The lady that got lost in Washington DC and would not stop her car was shot dead by police with her child in the car. During the Vietnam War protests, students who occupied campus buildings were routinely beaten and arrested, In Kent State unarmed peaceful protester were shot by the National Guard, killing four and wounding many more. Go look up the Democratic Convention protest in Chicago and the brutality of the police crack down. Go study the handling of American Indians who dare to protest their agregious treatment by the Federal Government. The feds, both parties, quickly passed a law whereby if you are arrested three times due to political protest, you can be chareged as a terrorist by homeland security. That means you have absolutely no recourse, no evidence has to be provided and they can make you disappear in their system and don’t have to tell your family where you are and you think the Russians have drakonian laws?

    In contrast Yanukovich in Kiev allowed the demonstrations to go on, letting them throw molotov cocktails at the police, occupying government buildings and burning down buildings. Faced with the possible petering out of this demonstration, the western funded instigators decided blood on the streets would turn the tide. The agents provacateurs hired snipers to shoot at the demonstrators and police.
    The new EU installed administration of Ukrainian Nationalists are now arresting those who sided with Yanukovich. One could understand a revolt had Yanukovich decided to cancel the elections, which were only a year away. Madame Nuland of the State department admitted billions were poured into Ukraine before this revolt. She also was recorded saying “F*ck the EU, lets get this thing going, get Yatsenyuk in and side line Klichko” (paraphrasing). No long after that, the shooting started. Yatseniuk, the least popular and unelected official is running the country. Klitchko was sidelined. And you think the Russians are undemocratic.

    As for living standards, have you recently gauged where the US living standards stands or are you still stuck in the 50’s? Many countries much smaller in wealth have much better living standards than the US. The only thing the US has is a huge military and it is good at manufacturing modern weapons and our government makes sure both are used extensively worldwide.

    And this is what you and others in our unelected House of Lords want us to lay down and die for. Of course, we know those who are well off enough will p–s off to lands of milk and honey until it’s over, and those who don’t have a few bob to get the hell out will be left to pick up the pieces should there be anything left to lift.

    ****

    You know the insult to the British people by our parliament is a kick in the teeth for every man woman and child here.

  2. Honoris Causa
    19/03/2014 at 7:27 pm

    One of the ambassadors sanctioned against by the USA was a former Russian ambassador to Malta.

    What I think of as international Semaphore is essential at such times between the two or three great powers, amongst which I now include the EU.

    The arbitrary annexation of the Crimea itself is a very distinct waving of flags, such as I learned in the Boy scouts.

    “The Cold War was still to come and nearly seven decades later we are wondering whether it has yet gon” (Debate Quote) The main basis for it was the non payment of Russian debt, dating back to 1917. Cold if you cant negotiate.
    The USA consistently traded with the former Soviet Union
    during all the life of that empire.

    The mood is different though after this. Looking at the Medvedev rise to power, his profound concern for Law, and the good application of it, the friendship of the two men, Putin
    and Medvedev, are surely not precursors of a new and ugly partnership such as the ones of Bulganin…Kruschev, and (who was the other?!!) Malenkov?

    To look through the UN Human Rights conventions and articles
    would reveal precisely how different the mood is. Perhaps Pussy Riot has the best opinion of all, their kind of knicker semaphore, that Putin has been there too long, and that there is apparently no noticeable successor.

    I would be glad if Noble Lords with far deeper knowledge would prove me wrong, pointing to a new Russian leader in the wings.

  3. 20/03/2014 at 4:14 am

    Lord Soley,

    I flatter myself to think you remember well enough some differences between us and so I do care about the niceties of Orthodox Christianity and all the rest. I believe the Russians could be made to see reason on some of those issues even if there will surely be changes in church discipline Crimea. But I do believe that somehow five things must happen or ideas must be upheld where the US and NATO or concerned:
    2. Crimea must be Russian for the foreseeable future even if changes are made in flags somehow.
    3. We must seek to support an independent Ukraine which is more federal and also allows functions of the gas pipelines.
    4. We must let Russia know we will continue to support those who seek our help to some degree, to seek commerce and to seek a climate of international law.
    5. We must support a Russian hinterland and sphere of influence in some sense even though it may be that Poland and the small Baltic states are entering a period of mostly looking West.

    None of this will be easy to handle going forward. For all I know these words may come to be seen as giving comfort to an enemy or some other crime. But that has not happened yet. There is a lot to do besides the great war we are toying with and so I say let us do those things. I honestly never favored crushing Russia but if that was ever timely it was a while ago. But neither can Russia be encouraged to roll over other countries. Crimea was the most excusable case possible. There are no similar cases really. This will be a tense time all around.

    • Gareth Howell
      20/03/2014 at 10:19 am

      may be that Poland and the small Baltic states are entering a period of mostly looking West.
      That is litotes! A chronic understatement!Ha!Ha! The Poles now count their freedoms, one by one, oppressed and enchained as many of them were in the 20thC, and the country itself.

      The many people of Russian forebears, who are also EU citizens today seem to have no axe to grind against anybody….. Cyprus is said to be a Russian colony, an exageration, but an amusing one.

      1990 brought not only the continuing movement towards freedom of movement of labour and capital for EU states, but to the whole world, most of all the Russians, and their former Soviet colonies. Globalism, with the
      sub-class Europeanism.

      • 20/03/2014 at 2:49 pm

        Gareth Howell,

        I don’t disagree with most of what you said and perhaps not any of it. Poland is deeply Slavic, deeply Roman Catholic and somewhat Teutonic. However, the deeply Slavic part is going to be there. There really is a difference too between countries like the Scandinavia states, Britain, the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland which have never had to meet a full-scale Muslim invasion and countries like Spain, France, Poland, Russia, the Balkan Christians and Italy where armed struggle with Islam defines the break with many periods of history before that struggle as much as any other factor does.

        That is why if Russia evolves in appealing ways and the Far West does not it may gain more appeal in Polish and Baltic eyes and minds over time.

  4. maude elwes
    20/03/2014 at 2:41 pm

    As this is a very important speech to have made at this time, and as our media appear to have missed it, I thought this would be a good place to be able to read of the intentions of Russia. It may give those interested a broader view of what is going on.

    http://eng.news.kremlin.ru/news/6889

  5. Honoris Causa
    24/03/2014 at 7:37 am

    “A solution to Crimea could be found in Cuba”

    David Owen’s article in the Guardian today is probably more along the lines of what Lord soley was looking, for comparison; Cuba and leasing. It looks workable but whether the Russian bureaucracy will notice, is another matter.
    Thanks to Lord Soley for the, albeit vain, attempt! I wonder what circumstances Cuba was leased in the first place. It was a ‘national’ debt of some sort.

  6. Gareth Howell
    24/03/2014 at 9:00 am

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantánamo_Bay

    The Cuban–American Treaty held, among other things, that the United States, for the purposes of operating coaling and naval stations, has “complete jurisdiction and control” of the Guantánamo Bay, while the Republic of Cuba is recognized to retain ultimate sovereignty.

    It could still be effected thus between Russia and Ukraine, and still be deemed illegal, with everybody fairly happy about it. The Cuban pay cheques from USA have been cashed, once by mistake.

  7. maude elwes
    25/03/2014 at 11:48 am

    @GH:

    What a vile legacy of the Cuban deal that would be and to suggest bestowing it on any part of Europe is exposing a fierce kind of hatred. If, that is, we are considering Ukraine is part of Europe. That part of Cuba is an eternal blight forever used as a dungeon to keep torture and secret rendition out of the eye of human beings for the use and abuse of the US military. Why is it the British are in so thick with this modern day example of medieval mind set? Why does Europe have to be saddled with any part of Americas sinister politics and behaviour? Why can we never be rid of them forever from the face of this continent? What is this eternal exploitative hold they have over our lands and minds? What do they have to lean on us with? And more than that, if the lean they have is government ill doing, why are the citizens forced into accepting this state of affairs when it is not us but others that are culpable, many of them sitting in that House of Lords?

    The cost of past war is, to you, seen as acceptable reason to place all Europe in the maize of Minos for eternity. Does that mean we, the citizens, of that part of the planet must find ourselves set up with a pair of wax wings in the ‘hope’ of escaping their clutches with our lives? Christ, Gareth, what is it you are suggesting? We remain chained to this off shore pervading cancer in perpetuity?

    Surely your suggestion leads us into a mindset that we are being led by the morbidly insane. Get this North American continent off our backs completely and look elsewhere for planetary unification and solace. Why do you feel Europe and us here must be saddled with them as we are?

    http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ppp/summary/v015/15.1.geller.html

Comments are closed.