I think I came dangerously close to sacrilege last Thursday! Lord Roberts of Llandudno had asked a question on prayers in the House of Lords. Just before questions in the House there is a period of prayer led by a Bishop for all those who want to attend. Lord Roberts wanted to include those of other faiths – I agree but the Bishop said they tried to cover everyone in their prayers anyway.
I was sorely tempted to jump up and point out that with the greatly expanded numbers in the House those of us who don’t pray often can’t get a seat because those who pray get there first! Question: Does anyone realise that we are outside praying for a seat?! Second question: Could those who do pray work out a rota system so that some of them give up their scarce seat for one who doesn’t pray?!
Finally, I am beginning to think it is like getting a place in a Church school where families become intensely religious a year before their child is due to go to secondary school. Call me cynical if you like but I recall a lot of vicars who told me how this was quite a problem for them!
For the question see: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldhansrd/text/110331-0001.htm#11033157000413
Start taxing prayer.
You’ve tried almost everything else recently.
Don’t forget the state used to do this in the past.
Ah Lord Soley, change prayers? What a hope….I particularly liked the Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Tara) suggesting that it might be a little premature to tinker again with prayers which had been amended as recently as 1979! Probably we need at least a century to assess the impact of changing prayers. To become a little more ecumenical would be an improvement; ditching them altogether would be better. Although I quite like the ancient words and the moment of quiet reflection.
In any case I have no sympathy for the Opposition bench members, who only in recent months have been tumbling over each other. We Crossbenchers have been forced to pray for years in order to get a seat. It isn’t quite such a problem now one can attend questions sitting below the bar in the visitors seats but of course if you want to leap up and intervene you have to sit in the chamber itself.
I see this as another change that is meant to pass over the electorate, who will not realise this is a fundamental alteration to the religion and way of life to the country they thought was theirs, from Christian to ‘multi’ faith. Which means nothing but chaos.
Do you people realise what you are doing at all? Or, have you all been affected by the quantum physics of the Large Hadron Collider, or, even the machine the US military is said to be using to turn TV presenters into gibberish speakers.
And, yes, I am serious! I mean, there has to be some reason why the entire Parliament loses its mind all at the same time.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1373073/Are-secret-U-S-army-tests-blame-TV-presenters-speaking-utter-gibberish.html
Leave the prayers as they are and get serious.
I go to prayers in part to get a seat, and spend those 5 minutes reflecting. Time to do away with them, not least because praying may lead those who pray to think that their subsequent contributions to proceedings of the House are blessed.
@Baroness Deech:
If you go to get a seat to ‘reflect,’ then surely you can ‘reflect’ anywhere at any time and allow those who do wish to commune with their God, or, pray, to have the space to do it. Sounds a little bit selfish I think, as those who want to pray, can’t do it anywhere or they may be thought odd? And as the country followed Christianity for some millenia, and didn’t do it any harm, that’s how it should continue. Reflecting on oneself is expecting a lot of an ordinary mind. Thinking there may be a higher power is an act of humility, and one I would expect in a person who has the privilege of planning for our country’s future.
And, if those believe their prayers have been answered, well, you and your chums can have them slung out as they must be people suffering from a messianic complex. However, not many did that with the messianic Blair did they? Not until he went to war with the notion he had been led into it, for, it was right at the time, wasn’t it? And according to him, he would do it again today. Not to mention he feels he must press to start bombing Iran. Now there is a dangerous devout man.
But, if we take today, wars are created by all sorts now, don’t have to be saintly. This is a spin off from Margaret Thatcher’s days. Who wasn’t much of a prayer freak, if my memory serves me well.
Are “those who don’t pray” not allowed to sit quietly and respectfully in the chamber during prayers? I’m thinking of the way non-believers sit through the prayers in a religious wedding or funeral ceremony. If not, then there is something wrong.
” but I recall a lot of vicars who told me how this was quite a problem for them!”
It still is, to selective CofE state secondary schools, which are old style grammar, in all but name.
@Gareth: If you believe state secondaries remotely resemble old style grammar schools, then you are out in left field.
If only! Kids in modern schools have trouble with the English language let alone tackling, with any seriousness, Latin, French, German, History, Literature, science, music, geography, chemistry, drama, sports, phys. ed. and on and on. Which once was the remit of a British education. Now only bought by the wealthy, who can still send their kids to Eton, or, some other wonderful English Public School. Won’t be for long though.
Soon, even the wealthy will have to send their kids abroad if they want them to be remotely literate.
However, they will know all about how to have sex, of all persuasions, very important, and where to get free condoms and the morning after pill. An essential requirement for life in good old GB today.
Once upon a time: Aspirations that didn’t include machine guns and pot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV5MJqwx-Mc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZB0sXsGX2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPzm0H_pxy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUDomhXX5Zw&feature=related
But, they were all puritanical hypocrites weren’t they?
Blagger:
Start taxing prayer.
Tithes are still used in the CofE.
Maude:
If you believe state secondaries remotely resemble old style grammar schools,
It is a complicated subject; I Was referring to CofE Comprehensives not state secondary. State secondary is truly the pits. Management is very different.
@Gareth:
Well, if you live in the right catchment area and you can pass yourself off as RC, then the best bet is the Oratory School.
http://www.london-oratory.org/tlos/htdocs/documents/strategic%20plan%202007-2010%20-%20v3_layout%202.pdf
Unfortunately, most people though, don’t have a remote opportunity of gaining entry to such a hub of knowledge and expectation. Except Blair and his ilk, they always make sure there’s a place for their kids. Or, like, Diane Abbott, they opt for independent even when their ideology wants to deny the that privilege to others.
Dear Cynical,
I expect there are some jokes in there somewhere regards the Bishop, the Baroness and her seat but I’ll save them.
With the rise of Islam and the decline of Christianity, questions sooner or later will have to be asked about Religions official place in our Parliament. Or will we wait until it’s broken as we do with other ethical questions that Government is too fearful to face ?
“To become a little more ecumenical would be an improvement; ditching them altogether would be better” (Baroness Murphy).
Once again, Baroness, you have come out with an absolute shocker of an argument. The ecumenical impulse/movement is in no sense a partial realisation of, or a stalking-horse for, secular humanism. Ecumenism is meant to strengthen the hand of christianity against the tide of secularism.
Presumably, it would still be possible for peers to put their ‘towels’ on the bench beforehand, prayers or no prayers (to borrow a common notion about german tourists).
Christianity versus Islam: Christian 71.8% of the population Muslim 2.8%
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=954
Christians should return to the old method of acceptable birth control. The same as Muslims practice. That way, the UK will remain an overwhelmingly Christian country.
“The nation is now officially post-Christian because “only” four million people attend church on an average Sunday”
“Britain is fast becoming a Muslim nation because “there will be fewer people attending churches than mosques by 2040″ (let’s ignore the dubious assumptions built into this forecast).”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/jun/09/religion-statistics-uk
Actually I don’t agree with the last statement as we appear to be becoming dare I say a humanist society.
“Bishops in the House of Lords:
74% of the British public believe it is wrong that Bishop’s have an automatic right to a seat in the House of Lords, including 70% of Christians according to an ICM survey conducted in 2010 on behalf of the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust.”
http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/religion-and-belief-surveys-statistics
One of the main reasons the church has a falling attendance is because the Church has lost its way with naval gazing and the introduction of women and issues on homosexuality. You cannot force people to go along with what they feel is not right for them. And the Chruch hierarchy know the reason for the disillusion but don’t want to address it. Or, can’t address it.
All know it and stay quiet for they are afraid to speak.
So, many have left the CofE for the RC church. Once people feel less oppressed by what is taking place they will once again return to their practice.
Many religious people have no sensible definition of prayer, some instead dividing its inherent-mystery into six types,
remember-able by A.C.T.I.O.N –
A for Adoration (one supposes that that includes “worth-ship” = “worship”);
C for ;
T for ;
I for Intercession (presumably the pray-er inside should be praying for the ‘only-standing-and-waiting’ ‘non-pray-ers’ outside, to have an equal seat inside);
O for Oblation (‘donation’/’offering’)
N for ;
Like miracles, some of which are instant whilst others take a very long period of time, ‘prayer’ can be of the quick and very brief ‘arrow’ kind (and of a ‘kind-arrow’ kind therin, one assumes),
or be a long ongoing effort like The Book of Common Prayer and its Litany, The Bible, The Talmud, The Koran, perhaps The Book of the Dead, perhaps “Jerusalem” … perhaps even “When You Walk Through A Storm Keep Your Head Held High”, “Show A Little Kindness”, “Spread A Little Happiness As You Go By”, “Let Me Be There In Your Morning Let Me Be There In Your Night” –
and by the way, surely an ‘outside-peer’ may be seated upon his/her own collapsible and camping-stool, the while waiting ?
even if such is not permitted inside the chamber/room itself ?
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1353T05Apr11.jsdm.
Just for your further information you can’t sit and reflect because prayers are said standing up and you then have to turn through four positions – don’t ask me why!
Maude, do you breakfst on bile? Surely you have something kind you can say from time to time!
@Clive Soley: What did you find bilish? Please elaborate.
As a practicing C of E i find it very rewarding to know that our legislators are led in prayer by a member of the established church. Quite right and it should stay like this.
I occasionally have to attend meetings where seating space is limited. This puts an incentive on early arrival, even if you know that the first ten minutes are largely irrelevant to you, because the prize of somewhere to sit is worth having.
However, I’m in the camp that would abolish compulsory RE and mandatory collective worship in schools, so removing it from Parliament is a logical progression from that.
Your dilemma here of seating and the ‘fact’ that there are too many to accommodate comfortably. Isn’t that an indication the Lords, as well as the Commons, are grossly overblown. Too many Peers and MP’s and they need to be cut down and quick.
Secondly, what is the relation to both Houses in respect of the nations religious and otherwise diversity balance.
According to the stats there should be in both upper and lower chambers the right level of ‘diversity’ according to our nations statistics.
That would mean, 71.8% Christian. 15.1% no religion. 7.7% not stated. 2.8% Muslim. 1.0% Hindu. 0.5% Jewish. 0.3% Buddhist. 0.3% other. And if the Houses are not according to the country’s make up, then that surely has to be addressed by positive discrimination.
After all that is what you all put forward as the right way for the people of this country. So, it has to be the ‘right’ way for all of you as well. That is only fair isn’t it?
To take this form of ‘right and fair’ even further. The average wealth of the general public is nowhere near as high as that of the average Parliamentarian. There are very few millionaires in the population, so millionaires are far and away over represented in Parliament. This must be addressed immediately and should be taken up by the Equal Opportunities Department.
To take this to the desired conclusion, you must break down the entire status of the nations people. That should be easy as we have just had a census, and see how many single women living in council houses with, one or more children/disabled parents they support, and make sure the numbers correlate to the make up of the two chambers.
That way, it will all be ‘right and fair’, will it not? And fair is what you want, isn’t it? Mustn’t dare approach the idea that some may be more equal than others, because of their intellect and aptitude, that may indicate natural elimination of so many from such high office wouldn’t it? So, lets run the country on the basis of diversity and see just how well we do on that wonderful ‘world stage’ called Globalization.
Maude, it’s a pity you see me as an American rather than as English who lives in America, as I would help in this case.
Not that those here regard me highly anyway,
Some say they aren’t Religious, and don’t want to pray. The Truth is, everyone is Religious, and those who say they have no Religion are really the loudest voices in demanding that we do and say everything they want us to do or say.
As Carl said, its becoming a Humanist Society. But the reason is not because people are becoming enlightened and thinking for themselves, its because the education in State Schools only teaches Children to be Humanist and basically brainwashes them into it. This is why Faith Schools must be closed. They teach Children to be “Religious rather than Rational”, in the eyes of our Humanist Overlords. Our media is also very biased against Christianity an In Favour of Humanist tenets.
It really is about trying to force Humanism onto us all. it’s a form of Bullying, really, in which we are all made to conform to the standards of Humanism and accept It as The only Logical and Rational way to go.
Look at Murphy’s claim that getting rid of prayer all together is best. Why is it best? Because her personal not-a-Religion sees Prayer as a waste of time and a throwback to the Stone Age. She’s much too enlightened to Pray! Its really the same “More Rational Than Thou” attitude we see all too often from Atheists.
They honestly think that Religion is bad as it forces itself onto others and causes social strife. Then when they force their beliefs onto others, and others resist, they claim those who resist are oppressive or cruel.
Really we aren’t. We just don’t want this Religion forced down our throats. Doing so in the name of Reason and Equality is no different than doing so in the name of God and Salvation.
Pity you lot can’t fathom that it’s the same thing you criticise In religion, as your too busy saying you have no religion and are Rational and modern et all, else you’d perhaps also see that forcing people into your religion is not morally right.
But who cares what I have to say? In a society of equals I am not welcomed. This is your brave new world.
@Zarove: And ‘you lot’ that live in the good old ‘USA’ was the people who shoved this down our throats here.
How do I know that? Because you all had this political correctness in your society long before it reached us here. Then you sold it on, via our fool politicians, as the way for us to go.
I bet you are sorry now though. Aren’t you?
And the reason no American is British, to me, is because they are not. Simply that, they couldn’t be more different, as you prove every time you post.
Remember what Mohammed Ali said when he went to Africa, my skin is black, that is where the resemblance ends. I am an American.