11 comments for “Iran the Green Revolution

  1. Gareth Howell
    10/02/2010 at 10:16 am

    Is Lord Soley hoping for restoration of the
    monarchy in Persia then?

    The principal hope for national and international development in Central Asia, including, in the long term, amelioration of the tension between the Palestinians and Jews,
    is the http://www.ecosecretariat.org

    an international organization which stretches from the border of Iraq to the Uighur Chinese border.

    It includes Iran,Pakistan,Khazakstan, Turkey,
    Afhganistan…..

    Objecting to the internal organization of a theocracy (Iran) whilst promoting the theocracies of New Zealand and Australia, appointed by the head of the CofE, is just so hypocritical as to be thoroughly boring… banale.

    For the USA to promote Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO) in the same way as they did the EEC/ECSC in the early 1950s would be a moment of serious sanity.

    With the new President of Europe and his FA
    Commissioner, Cathy Ashton, we may possibly get some movement towards such a goal, but it will take work and deep thought to do it.

    It is possible that neither of them has given much thought to it; their staff may have done so.

  2. Twm O'r Nant
    10/02/2010 at 10:37 am

    An overarching order was lost in central Asia
    when the Soviets withdrew. That over arching order has caused a vacuum ever since (an overarching vacuum) The dire war in Tajikistan
    in the 90s was purely and simply ethnicity not knowing whether they were communists or muslims, soviets or Asians.

    Restoration of Order has itself got to be INTERNATIONAL, and not just local as per noble Clive’s suggestion of civil disobedience in Iran.

    That order has to be based on any of the half dozen International groupings of the Region.*

    SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization)is not an answer, and especially not for
    Iran.

    Silk Road States Organization (SRO)? is a lesser order, but might be helpful. It would not be able to include Iraq for many a long year.

    I hope that helps Noble Lord Soley think on….

    * the term Region can be confusing since it is very loosely applied to Wales as a region
    of the EU, OR Central Asia as a region of the world.

    Regrettably the meaning in international law deliberation is distinct from the EU meaning of “regional” development.

    The need for UK FO for example to attempt to put pressure on Iran as an example of “bad”
    government is partly as a salve to the conscience of the UK which more or less own the economy of Azerbaijan in the guise of the only business in that state ….. BP Amoco.

    Azerbaijan is a member of the ECO above.

    The fundamental military politics for a development of the Central Asian organisation IS in place, in the form of Russian/Us air bases cheek by jowl with each other (whether owned or rented) in very single state other than Iran.

    The Russian are doing good with Iran.

    It does no good for lord Soley to belly ache about Iran, unless the cure is one purely of local UK perception of change in that country, to allow a multilateral development of the ECO.

    Concentrating on this country, say Afghanistan, or that country, say Iran(Persia) does no good to the cause of International law, or a more lasting peace in the Region.

    ECO Rules OK!

    • Gareth Howell
      10/02/2010 at 10:39 am

      ONE

      Is Lord Soley hoping for restoration of the
      monarchy in Persia then?

      The principal hope for national and international development in Central Asia, including, in the long term, amelioration of the tension between the Palestinians and Jews,
      is the http://www.ecosecretariat.org

      an international organization which stretches from the border of Iraq to the Uighur Chinese border.

      It includes Iran,Pakistan,Khazakstan, Turkey,
      Afhganistan…..

      Objecting to the internal organization of a theocracy (Iran) whilst promoting the theocracies of New Zealand and Australia, appointed by the head of the CofE, is just so hypocritical as to be thoroughly boring… banale.

      For the USA to promote Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO) in the same way as they did the EEC/ECSC in the early 1950s would be a moment of serious sanity.

      With the new President of Europe and his FA
      Commissioner, Cathy Ashton, we may possibly get some movement towards such a goal, but it will take work and deep thought to do it.

      It is possible that neither of them has given much thought to it; their staff may have done so.

      TWO

      An overarching order was lost in central Asia
      when the Soviets withdrew. That over arching order has caused a vacuum ever since (an overarching vacuum) The dire war in Tajikistan
      in the 90s was purely and simply ethnicity not knowing whether they were communists or muslims, soviets or Asians.

      Restoration of Order has itself got to be INTERNATIONAL, and not just local as per noble Clive’s suggestion of civil disobedience in Iran.

      That order has to be based on any of the half dozen International groupings of the Region.*

      SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organization)is not an answer, and especially not for
      Iran.

      Silk Road States Organization (SRO)? is a lesser order, but might be helpful. It would not be able to include Iraq for many a long year.

      I hope that helps Noble Lord Soley think on….

      * the term Region can be confusing since it is very loosely applied to Wales as a region
      of the EU, OR Central Asia as a region of the world.

      Regrettably the meaning in international law deliberation is distinct from the EU meaning of “regional” development.

      The need for UK FO for example to attempt to put pressure on Iran as an example of “bad”
      government is partly as a salve to the conscience of the UK which more or less own the economy of Azerbaijan in the guise of the only business in that state ….. BP Amoco.

      Azerbaijan is a member of the ECO above.

      The fundamental military politics for a development of the Central Asian organisation IS in place, in the form of Russian/Us air bases cheek by jowl with each other (whether owned or rented) in very single state other than Iran.

      The Russian are doing good with Iran.

      It does no good for lord Soley to belly ache about Iran, unless the cure is one purely of local UK perception of change in that country, to allow a multilateral development of the ECO.

      Concentrating on this country, say Afghanistan, or that country, say Iran(Persia) does no good to the cause of International law, or a more lasting peace in the Region.

      ECO Rules OK!

  3. Gareth Howell
    10/02/2010 at 12:45 pm

    Apologies.

    Is Noble Lord Soley hoping for restoration of the
    monarchy in Persia then?

    The principal hope for national and international development in Central Asia, including, in the long term, amelioration of the tension between the Palestinians and other Israelis,

    is the http://www.ecosecretariat.org

    an international organization which stretches from the border of Iraq to the Uighur Chinese border.

    It includes Iran,Pakistan,Khazakstan, Turkey,
    Afhganistan, Azerbaijan,Turkemnistan…

    Objecting to the internal organization of a theocracy (Iran) whilst promoting the theocracies of New Zealand and Australia, appointed by the head of the CofE, is just so hypocritical as to be thoroughly boring… banale.

    For the USA to promote Economic Cooperation Organization (ECO) in the same way as they did the EEC/ECSC in the early 1950s would be a moment of serious sanity.

    With the new President of Europe and his FA
    Commissioner, Cathy Ashton, we may possibly get some movement towards such a goal, but it will take work and deep thought to do it.

    It is possible that neither of them has given much thought to it; their staff may have done so.

  4. Clive Soley
    10/02/2010 at 3:41 pm

    I am not proposing to enter into a discussion about Iran’s relation with its neighbours but you might like to read the latest Russian view:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/198eb41a-15e3-11df-b65b-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1

    My main point is that a regime which has just hung a couple of demonstrators and is promising to hang more doesn’t deserve support. I support the opposition to this increasingly brutal regime and I had hoped others would.

    • Gareth Howell
      10/02/2010 at 5:25 pm

      Sorry about that proliferation of posts above.

      I entirely agree that hanging and all the other barbarities described by correspondents from the Arab and Muslim world of Sharia Law,
      should be ended.

      It is not easy for the US or the EU
      to communicate with ‘N’ different countries on that subject in particular, nor even for the UN.

      Lord Soley will recall that the one effective method of getting all the EU countries to agree to the UNCHR (UN convention on human rights) was by sending it to Brussels, to hand down, to each member country, which it promptly did inclusively.

      I agree that such a regime/state does not deserve support, but in a world of Super states, of one of which UK is a constituent part, it does not make much sense to communicate on the subject, to the individual state, especially since the Global Human Rights convention, of which NON-hanging is a part, only became part of UK law through the EU.

      Be fair! To say that the noble lord does not intend to get involved with other states or other (regional) matters is to beg the question of the Global/international aspect of Human rights in general, and the power of
      International convention/law.

      The endeavor by the UK and other EU/US states
      to destroy the unity of Muslim thought, on the subject, by dividing it, is graceless.

      The OIC (Organization of Islamic conferences)
      which, in my view, is the visible worldwide political wing of the terror organizations,
      is also the leader of Muslim world opinion of the value of Sharia Law, an aspect of which the noble lord, rightly condemns.

      OIC has lobby credentials at the UN.
      ECO does also and is a political organization
      not a quasi-religious one; it is not concerned with religious law, but international organization,politics.

      It would be wise to condemn many aspects of the primitive law of the Caliphs of the 9thC Islam, and the restoration of it, not by referring to one example of barbarity in one country of it, but by highlighting the tremendous possibilities for peace in the wider region, of supporting, and making more widely known the potential for the International super state known as the ECO (Economic Cooperation Organisation).

      I am fairly certain that the President of the USA does have such an understanding of the need for SuperStates worldwide. He is president of one himself and would certainly prefer to negotiate with the head, like President Barroso, even with regard to the matter of hanging in Iran, without suggesting that the “regime”(country’s political order should be toppled.

      I do not think for a single moment that it should be toppled. I am not in favor of Religious theocracies, but I HAVE been to New Zealand and Australia!

      The outrageous statement by Ahmedinejadd
      4 or 5 years ago, to destroy/nuke Israel is one that has been taken, very wrongly, to heart by a good many non thinking people of Eastern Europe/Central Asia, trying to solve their own political problems.

      I do think that Ahmedinejadd should have gone
      some time ago for making that remark alone,
      but to destabilize the political system for the sake of one tiny tin pot leader, would be a mistake.

      The triumvirate of Mullahs who run the theocracy did world peace the power of good, by their very gracious attendance, at the Funeral rites of the late Pope. That was enough for me to know that, whilst I do not support political theocracy, Iran is in good hands for the time being. It is such a diverse country, with such a colorful and rich history, such refined people, that it is foolish to think otherwise.

      Ahmedinejadd will not last much longer as leader.

      Persia is of course a part of Iran, as England is to the UK.

  5. Bedd Gelert
    10/02/2010 at 3:44 pm

    Hmmm… Never mind the Iranian revolution – there is likely to be one closer to home if you don’t your House in Order-Order..

    http://order-order.com/2010/02/10/carry-on-claiming-mlords/

    You may not like the way he says it, but Guido does have a point, doesn’t he ?

  6. Twm O'r Nant
    10/02/2010 at 8:55 pm

    Restoration of the Law of the Caliphs under which these hangings may have been carried out,
    is comparable to the Ecclesiastical Law of the CofE.

    The difference may be that we do not wish to restore our ecclesiastical law, but they do!

    I have seen a comparison of differences somewhere, in terms of the evolution of religious law over the centuries, and if I find it again , I will post it here.

    For Christian fundamentalists the world may have been started in seven days by God, but they no longer suggest that he should end it in the same way or by religious dictate; the exception of the Millenarianists proving the rule!

    On the top of mountains they often have more luck than those condemned to hang in Iran or
    Pakistan, although the Waco Siege co-ordinator (Texas 1986(?))allowed them no more freedom to live either.

  7. ZAROVE
    11/02/2010 at 7:24 pm

    ACTUALLY………

    Iran is not a Theocracy. Iran is an Islamic Republic with an Eccleseocratic council as its head. An Ecclesiocracy is distinct from s Theocracy in that it is rule by a Religious body, as opposed to rule by God directly. Iran doesn’t envision itself as ruled by God directly, and in fact only one nation in the world is an actual Theocracy, and that is the Vatican City-State.

    All that said, I do tire of how people assume “Theocracy” ( By which they mean rule by religion, even though this isn’t accurate) is somehow evil. Yes I know, as we all have been told Religion is an evil oppressive force when it rules and all “Theocracies” are tyrannies.

    Indeed, I’ve been told that No Theocracy is good, and if I think it is just look at those in the Middle east Like Iran. Even if I accepted them as Theocracies, one has to ask why I would assume that no Theocracy could be good just because you can cite bad examples? And since no one ever mentions the Vatican, one has to wonder why they think this is Fair. Is the Vatican a tyrannical and oppressive nation?

    Was Tibet under the Dahli Lama?

    Rule by a Religious Figure need not be understood as tyrannical. Religious leaders are often kindly and benevolent, and just as often respect Human Rights, or even champion them.

    So, the problem in Iran is not that they are ruled by a Religious council, but rather it is what that council does.

    Its the same as a Secular Republic. Not all Secular Republics respect Human Rights and allow Freedom, and if we assume that creating a Secular Democracy will cure all the problems in a Society, and grant its Citesens freedom, whereas a Theocracy will oppress the masses and destroy Freedom whilst creating strife, we are committing a fallacy of thinking in which our emphasis is less on what is good for the people an more on the system of Government, for we think the system is what works automatically one way or the other.

    One can imagine, due to Historical precedence, for example, a State run completely by an Archbishop of the Orthodox or Catholic Church that remains unfettered in freedom, as sometimes occur din the Middle GAes.

    Even if New Zealand where to re-establish Ecclesiastical courts and grant them real power, do we really think that the Modern CofE would go about Hanging people for Heresy on a Regular Basis and slaughtering anyone who wasn’t a Christian? Is that really what the con temporary Anglican Church acts like? Or do we assume granting it power would automatically change its Character?

    Its all really rather absurd.

    That said, I happen to favour restoration of he Persian Shah myself. He is the Legitimate ruler of the Kingdom, and the Republic was nothing but a Rebellion created fiasco that never should have existed.

    I myself happen to be a Monarchist, and don’t think that, even in our Age of Democracy, that creating another Republic will work here. Republics created from Corrupt Republics soon find themselves corrupt. Its the same people who will in the end hold power as held power in opposition, and they will learn the lessons of their predecessors, only a break form this order, and a return to the old, will bring stability.

    • Gareth Howell
      23/02/2010 at 4:59 pm

      ZAROVA’S comments are interesting especially regarding the closer definition of Theocracy Ecclesiology, which are of course correct.

      “favour restoration of he Persian Shah myself. He is the Legitimate ruler of the Kingdom, and the Republic was nothing but a Rebellion”

      I have replied to this indirectly but to re gurgitate….. The Kingdom is …of Persia, a small part of Iran. The Republic is of Iran,a much larger entity .

      Is he/she in favor of domination of Iran by a Shah of Persia?

  8. Carl.H
    16/02/2010 at 11:19 am

    I am loathe to get into pointless argument on a site directly tied to UK parliament on this issue. It maybe just a free minded debate but Lord Soley`s comments will be seen otherwise by Iran. Comments could be seen as the UK backing the resistence movement, which is all well and good when you`re not the one being hung.

    I remember too well American comments on Northern Ireland, and Worldwide comments on the farce that saw Bush elected, when some Americans screamed “fix”.

    Iran, politically, is the cornered animal at present it will be aggressive in it`s defence.

    Lord Soley said:
    “My main point is that a regime which has just hung a couple of demonstrators and is promising to hang more doesn’t deserve support.”

    Do you have the same view on the American death sentence ?

    Would you interfere in our Country`s Judicial system let alone a foreign one. Have you all the facts layed before the Court ?

    You talk of revolution and then act surprised when people are hung ? If a large enough community of people in this Country acted in the same manner, I don`t know the exact manner I haven`t the Court docs, would not similar happen. OK hanging may not, but we had at least one innocent die due to Police action in a recent demonstration. How many died on Bloody Sunday ?

    Beware of pot and kettle syndrome and beware your comments don`t become the Official British view in Iran.

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