I was impressed by the number of responses, and correct answers, to last week’s quiz. As a result, I have decided that this week we will have winners rather than a winner: the first two readers to respond with the correct answers will be the winners.
Question 1
I have twice been Deputy Leader of the House
I prefer my passport to show my title rather than my family name
I entered the House in 1954
Who am I and what is my family name?
Question 2
I am a former mayor of Windsor and Maidenhead
I now sit on the cross benches
I am the director of Marie Stopes International
My particular interests are the role of four-million Indians in the two world wars, empowerment of women in South Asia and Africa, family planning, and the Indian sub-continent, including Burma
Who am I?
1) The 13th Earl Ferrers, whose family name is Shirley. Deputy Leader of the Lords 1979-83 and 1988-97.
2) The Baroness Flather.
Will be interesting to see how many people get the answer to question 1 this week. Surely not that many?
Matt Korris
Hansard Society
Robert Washington Shirley, Earl Ferrers
Baroness Flather of Windsor and Maidenhead in the Royal County of Berkshire
1) Earl Ferrers, Robert Washington Shirley
2) Baroness Shreela Flather
Earl Ferrers in question 1
Robert Washington Shirley, 13th Earl Ferrers, PC
1. Robert Shirley, Earl Ferrers
2. Baroness Flather
With reference to the first one preferring his title over his surname, a quote from “Airplane!” might be appropriate…
1. Earl Ferrers, family name: Shirley
2. Shreela Flather, Baroness Flather
Pah, Matt no enjoying our struggles!
On reading it I assumed it would be Lord Carrington whose title/surname history is well known until I remembered he entered the Lords long before that.
1) Earl Ferrers? (Shirley) Bit puzzled by the passport comment. I’ve not seen any to be able to comment but I thought that peers had their title on the passport – is this some reference to the removal of the title from the front cover in the 90s?
2) Lady Flather
1) Earl Ferrers (whose family name is Shirley)
2) Baroness Flather
Another week of excellent responses, both quantitatively and qualitatively. The answers are indeed Earl Ferrers (family name Shirley) and Baroness Flather.
The winners this week are Robin Lewis and Chris K, both of whom were very fast in responding. Chris K just pipped Conor McGrath by two minutes. Commendations to everyone not only for getting the answers but also for the speed of the responses.
Croft: Earl Ferrers does have his title on his passport and attracted publicity recently when he received an assurance from a minister that this would also be the case in respect of an ID card. Lord Ferrers thought confusion may arise if his passport said Earl Ferrers but his ID card named him as Robert Shirley.
Jonathan: Yes, I thought about ‘Airplane’. There was also a ‘Don’t call me Shirley’ sketch in the old Radio Active radio show.
Ah I should have guessed. As I understood it peers’ titles are inside the passport in full and the rank in the Mr/Mrs field. The same is true of DVLA documents and so on, the ID card would have been breaking with convention. Having known friends who use less internationally known shortenings of their Christian names have trouble when this appears on their boarding card/ticket but doesn’t ‘match’ their passport I have some suspicion the concern of peers might be valid.
Croft, there is no “title” field on a passport, nor on a photocard driving licence, and in my opinon there shouldn’t be. A title is not part of a name, it’s just a way people choose to address others. I could use whatever title I want (and in fact do use two different ones). And women can freely choose to use Miss, Mrs or Ms. I feel peerages are somewhat different, but they don’t easily divide into “title, forename, surname” fields. Perhaps it would be better to have a single name field, and to capitalise the family or territorial name to distinguish it, e.g. John SMITH, Lord NORTON OF LOUTH, Earl FERRERS.
So you mean peers can currently use their titles on their passport? On the last page with the photo (the only one that really counts)? I find it hard to see how peerage titles can be accommodated, as passports have a standard international format, with spaces for “Surname” and “Given names”. Does Earl Ferrers have his surname as “Ferrers” and given name as “Earl”, and the machine-readable strip reading FERRERS<<EARL ?
It seems that the solution offered for ID cards isn't that satisfactory. It will simply allow peers to have their title printed on the back of the card not the front, the equivalent of having it mentioned on some page of a passport, not on the back page. But then what's to stop the Earl telling the ID service his surname is Ferrers – he's just as entitled to change his surname as anyone else.
Actually, one of the many things I don't like about ID cards is that they are trying to stop the way English common law allows people to change their names whenever they want with little formality. It's yet something else eating away at the British way of doing things.
But anyway, with a little luck, ID cards will have been scrapped by this time next year.
Croft and Jonathan: It’s probably best not to get me going on the issue of passports. I don’t know if my experience was typical (probably not) but it took ages when it was first changed – the Passport Agency having claimed it would be quick and efficient – and when I needed to renew it the person at the Passport Office seemed rather flummoxed as to what was required. The title does appear with the surname. The full title provided on the page stating ‘The holder of the passport is…’ is a formulation I have never seen before. It also manages to employ the American spelling of honourable.
I remember reading an account of a peer trying to get his title correct with another government agency which suggests you might have escaped lightly! Some of the attempts were priceless. Surname ‘of’!
Croft: It’s a problem with a range of organisations. Some address software clearly cannot cope with titles, with the result that I get a lot of mail at home with weird and wonderful formulations. The combination of professor and lord results in some especially interesting results.
It can, though, have its amusing element, especially where software is designed to convey some degree of informality and address the letter with the person’s forename: e.g. ‘Dear Fred’. I variously get letters that start ‘Dear Lord’.
Well if from time to time the arrival of the post in the morning can give you a chuckle before the working day begins I’d consider myself lucky!
Croft (in reply to later post below) if I could simply receive my post at home in the morning before work I’d feel lucky. Normally it doesn’t arrive until around mid-day!