Last November, while visiting the archeological museum in Tripoli with a tour group I was approached by a camera crew making a short news item for Libyan TV to promote tourism, the idea being to show what a nice appreciative lot we foreign tourists were. I duly went into ambassadorial mode, speaking of the wonderful treasures (true) and the new spirit of co-operation between our two countries ‘after a ‘difficult period’. Honestly I impressed myself. Everyone was happy. We could see of course that the tour guides spoke only of the difficult regime in private and with some reticence, we could see the profound poverty outside of Tripoli; we could see the lack of infrastructure apart from roads, we could see Libya had a rotten and repressive regime but I do not think it was a bad thing to go and see for ourselves nor to try in a small way to bridge the distance between us.
Now what do I really think about Sir Howard Davies resignation? Was it wrong for his institution to receive funding from the Libyan government. No, we had full diplomatic arrangements with them and if we refused to do business with every regime we didn’t think was perfect we would have very few countries to deal with. I understand his resignation on the reputation point but not the substantive one. He did no wrong. I take Baroness Deech’s point that with money comes the suspicion of influence over the matters to be researched but this is not necessarily the case. The important matter is to declare the conflicts of interest inherent in the funding of any research. Better that than stop it altogether. The more there is contact between countries and peoples, of all kinds, the better the chances of our developing mutual understanding. And it was a time when all departments of state were actively encouraging participation with Libyan institutions.
This is not directly related but it reminds me of a related problem about the convoluted purchasing decisions of some local health authorities in the early 1970s. Take oranges for example; should we purchase Spanish fascist oranges, Israeli anti Arab oranges or South African apartheid oranges? Or just buy orange juice which was safely from Florida. The answer was ‘the best quality for the cheapest price’.
The answer was ‘the best quality for the cheapest price’.
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So are you going to put your job out for open tender?
We can get better quality and we can get cheaper.
Should we believe the “independent” report sponsored by ASH or the one by American Tobacco ?
I doubt there is ever a clear cut answer but recipients of financial backing have to ensure their independence themselves. There is all types of bribery and corruption from presents to holidays, cash to fame. Even in political circles it pays dividends to get as high as possible to get the book deals, ask Mandy.
The problem lays in telling the altruistic from the self centred.
“We could see Libya had a rotten and repressive regime”.
So when we came back we………???
I am stunned by what this thread is offering as a white wash for what appears on the surface as rampant corruption, pure and simple.
This man resigned because he felt he couldn’t handle further scrutiny. And didn’t want to have to expose any more of what is really going on there. Which appears to have been going on for some time. It turns out that T.Blair and his crew were in to this mess up to their eyeballs, a sure sign there was some kind of pay off. Blair isn’t part of something unless it has a pay off for him. So this man felt his best bet was to get away and keep his head down.
It will all out in the end though. It always does. And how will those who backed it wash their hands of it when they are found to have gone against the best interests of the nation?
the archeological museum in Tripoli with a tour group
I hope it does not suffer the same fate as the one in Baghdad in 2003, when the first things that were looted were the treasures of the museums. We saw pictures, if you recall, of people carting off loads, a good deal of which ended up on the London market, illegally, since a member of the HofL issued a private members’ bill to prevent it happening.
18 months ago another Lord was attempting, possibly with some success, to rescind the Law so that (presumably his) artefacts from Iraq could once again be bought and sold on the London market.
I wonder where he got them from?
Lord Blagger, are you looking for a job then?
Carl H, Lets be realistic, I was a tourist.
Maud you couldn’t be more wrong about the roots of Howard Davies’ resignation, he isn’t a person to take the easy route nor to avoid personal scrutiny. Would you prefer we stick our heads in the sand and not deal with countries we don’t admire? What good does that do their people?
Gareth Howell, I do fear for their treasures, particularly the fabulous archeological sites at Leptis Magna and in Cyrenaica. I hope very much the foreign academic support teams will return soon.
“So when we came back we………???”
Decided a holiday home just outside Tripoli was not a good idea !
😉
We all have ideals but few can live by them. We are very good at telling others how moralistic they should be whilst professing Greenness, worrying of the grandchildren, sitting at our computers with all the lights on before we drive our large comfortable cars to the supermarket. I guess life is a trade-off and none of us actually live how we’d dream. Perhaps the easiest thing in life is being hypocritical, we all seem quite good at that.
I’m not qualified for the Lords.
I haven’t been kicked out of parliament, and I don’t brown nose politicians.
As for Libya, if you go to Sabratha, at least you get to see how a 2,000 year old public toilet worked.
It’s downhill in the UK from here.
The answer should be “The best quality for the fairest price”.
Baroness, would you really associate your-self with “the cheapest” ? I think Blagger is right; your life-styling and workplace-costs do appear to be un-sustain-worthily super-expensive, I’m afraid.
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0138W09Mar11.JSDM.
Fair to whom? The assumption I think your making is that its fair to the Lords.
What about fairness for the public who have to pay well over an Archer a day to keep a lord going?
milesjsd. You’ll note I put quality first. I’m not sure what you mean about my ‘life-styling and workplace-costs’. Cheapest second chamber in Europe expensive? Nope, and actually while I’d be quite happy to move out of this expensive to maintain Grade I listed building and into a new office block more fit for purpose I’m darned sure the whingers would complain of the costs of that too.
Cheapest second chamber in Europe expensive?,
List the others and their costs.
How do you compare costwise against New Zealand?
This is nothing to do with the ‘Libyan people.’ This is a small group of individuals peddling influence. Using the idea of it being inspired by the Libyan people is a smokescreen.
Politicians always do this. When you go to specifics they always return it to the general. This is in order to obfuscate the true nature of whatever secret deal has been arranged. Nothing to do with any ‘particular peoples’ Libyan or British, other than a few very powerful men/women making deals behind closed doors.
And the man in question isn’t likely to come out and confess to you what he was into is he? Watch that one, because a lot of people get sucked into believing a person is up front and squeaky clean, until low and behold, the truth outs.
Were you party to this set up? And therefore can give your personal assurance as to the nature of these arrangements? That is the only way you can be sure of your assertions.
“The answer was ‘the best quality for the cheapest price’”
Surely you don’t mean this, Baroness ?
Do you buy clothes with nary a care of where they are made, and wear them thinking nothing of whether they are made by child-labour in an ‘export-processing zone’ in a country with dodgy employment rights ?
To be honest, I had credited you with more intelligence…
Bedd Gelert, What I am really saying is that from our vantage point in the UK it is very difficult to weigh up the pros and cons of purchasing from a country where the regime may not be good but where the people who live there may well be helped by our purchasing goods from them. I think I probably don’t buy clothes with any thought as to where they are made; how much do we know about conditions in individual factories in China, Korea and the Philippines where many of our clothes come from? I dare say its not good but they do benefit when revenue accrues to their locality. I used to worry about roses from Kenya but have come to the conclusion that Kenyans benefit more from the revenue overall by my buying them.
Fair enough, as I was being a little provocative here, as I buy things ‘Made In China’ [it is becoming increasingly difficult to avoid doing this..] and I am not a fully ‘ethical consumer’.
Indeed my ‘British’ T.M.Lewin shirt is made in Vietnam [I think] and my Marks and Spencer’s underwear is made almost anywhere other than the UK and Israel these days.
But having read Naomi Klein’s ‘No Logo’ and certain ethical consumer books, I think it is rather important to at least make an attempt to avoid some of the worst offenders.
But I am not going to pretend that this is easy- few worthwhile things in life ever are. Switching from Nestle Kit-Kats to Green and Black ‘ethical’ chocolate is all very well, but when the latter is taken over by Kraft, what is one to do ?
We do have choices as consumers, and they do make powerful differences.
Free Libyans crying for help from the West, Muslims crying for western military help, invited.
Where are we? Iraq we invaded on the flimsiest of evidence yet now where are we ?
I can imagine the brutality and barbarity in Zawiyah, it will be cleansed if this is allowed to continue without the rebels receiving help.
Tomorrow more torture, more killing will have happened. Please act now.
This is ludicrous. The Libyan people decided they were going to fight for their rights to ‘what’? Do you know what they are planning for their people? Do you know whether it would be in the interests of our country? Are you remotely in touch with the vision they have for their future life?
Want to bet it isn’t being bogged down with the Western hero’s whose eye is really on the oil produce.
And who are you expecting to die for this from our country? Are you lined up in front? Or, are you like Blair and his crew, whose kids conveniently sink themselves into Morgan Stanley. Give me a break!
And who is going to pay for your bounty? I’ve got a good idea, put a box in the corner of the next form government sends out that asks if the person signing this form will tick the box in the corner offering to pay an additional sum in taxes to go to the save the Libyan, Afghanistan, etc., etc.,in their fight at whatever amount per annum. And then ask they tick if they will be willing to shed their blood. See how many takers you have for your benevolence.
When a country decides to free itself from bondage, they have to take into account how on earth they plan to do that. In this case, they should have used their loaf. They knew the devil they were up against, their plan to rid themselves of the dictator should have been set up before they took action. Not expect others to die for their cause after they have found themselves knee deep in mayhem. They must have known the risks.
You need to read the book ‘Nemesis’ by ‘Peter Evans.’ He was a Foreign Correspondent who really knew about politics and politicians. Nothings changed and the players are exactly the same as they were in this incestuous world play of that time.
Then tell me you want British soldiers to go out their and die for another’s peoples freedom. Or, more likely, for the movers and shakers of government wheelers and dealers.