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	<title>Comments on: Misunderstanding the Mental Health Act and Living Wills</title>
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	<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/</link>
	<description>Life and Work in the House of Lords</description>
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		<title>By: Gareth Howell</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7316</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Howell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7316</guid>
		<description>&quot;strong supporter of Assisted Dying for the Terminally ill when the decision is made in the setting of full mental competence in someone free of any diagnosable mental disorder2&quot;


&quot;Her so called Living Will was invalid, a travesty, made in the setting of a long standing mental disorder.&quot;

Yes noble baroness there is the world of difference between the two, and no heads should be beaten about, to highlight the one at the expense of the other.

I wonder what precisely her living will said, and radically at what point they declared her dead.

If they accepted the living will, did they also accept that her organs would be &#039;harvested&#039; if they possibly could?

At precisely what point of ingestion was she declared officially dead?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;strong supporter of Assisted Dying for the Terminally ill when the decision is made in the setting of full mental competence in someone free of any diagnosable mental disorder2&#8243;</p>
<p>&#8220;Her so called Living Will was invalid, a travesty, made in the setting of a long standing mental disorder.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes noble baroness there is the world of difference between the two, and no heads should be beaten about, to highlight the one at the expense of the other.</p>
<p>I wonder what precisely her living will said, and radically at what point they declared her dead.</p>
<p>If they accepted the living will, did they also accept that her organs would be &#8216;harvested&#8217; if they possibly could?</p>
<p>At precisely what point of ingestion was she declared officially dead?</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Howell</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7315</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Howell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 18:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7315</guid>
		<description>For me the questions are did they save her kidneys, or did they not save her, or did they succeed in both?

Did they allow the kidney failure to progress
whilst giving her pain killers, or did they remove the kidneys before the anti freeze got anywhere near them to prevent their failing?

That may be the nub of the matter. I am not sure.

Whatever happened, she succeeded in her ambition, but how?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For me the questions are did they save her kidneys, or did they not save her, or did they succeed in both?</p>
<p>Did they allow the kidney failure to progress<br />
whilst giving her pain killers, or did they remove the kidneys before the anti freeze got anywhere near them to prevent their failing?</p>
<p>That may be the nub of the matter. I am not sure.</p>
<p>Whatever happened, she succeeded in her ambition, but how?</p>
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		<title>By: Misunderstanding the Mental Health Act and Living Wills « Lords of &#8230; : Comfortable Life</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7314</link>
		<dc:creator>Misunderstanding the Mental Health Act and Living Wills « Lords of &#8230; : Comfortable Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7314</guid>
		<description>[...] Read the original: Misunderstanding the Mental Health Act and Living Wills « Lords of &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Read the original: Misunderstanding the Mental Health Act and Living Wills « Lords of &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: McDuff</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7313</link>
		<dc:creator>McDuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7313</guid>
		<description>Dear mods, please fix my incorrect tags for me!  Many thanks (also, this message can be deleted).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear mods, please fix my incorrect tags for me!  Many thanks (also, this message can be deleted).</p>
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		<title>By: McDuff</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7312</link>
		<dc:creator>McDuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 11:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7312</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Does anyone really believe that drinking anti-freeze and the taking yourself off to an A&amp;E room waving a so-called ‘living will’ is the act of a person who wants to die?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps I am alone here, but I will at least put my X in the &quot;yes, it certainly seems that way&quot; box.

I don&#039;t dispute that the young lady in question sounds disturbed, but I don&#039;t see how one can say she sounds so disturbed as to not be capable of forming judgements.  If we assume that the right to suicide is to be accepted, then presumably we have to accept that the right will encompass people who feel mental distress and inability to cope with life, as well as those suffering from merely physical pain.

It is easy to say that the doctors are to blame for enabling this person to end her own life, but fundamentally if society in general cannot comfort these people enough then placing the burden on them to make the up or down call is hardly fair.  The problem needs to be solved well before it ever reaches the emergency room.

Indeed, I would say the call was [i]arguably[/i] correct here (although not necessarily so).  Ms Wooltorton intended to commit suicide, and picked a painful way of doing so.  She asked the doctors to manage her self-inflicted pain, but not to save her life, apparently safe in the knowledge that the law gave her the right to do that.  Had the doctors kept her alive, what guarantees would they have that she would not repeat the attempt but, next time, without the call to 999?  Lives saved nil, human suffering significantly increased.

Whether this was the right call or not, I am not possibly qualified to say.  But I will not by any means condemn the doctors for making a reasonable judgement call in a difficult case at the end of a young girl&#039;s troubled life.  It was not their job to prevent her suicide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Does anyone really believe that drinking anti-freeze and the taking yourself off to an A&amp;E room waving a so-called ‘living will’ is the act of a person who wants to die?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Perhaps I am alone here, but I will at least put my X in the &#8220;yes, it certainly seems that way&#8221; box.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t dispute that the young lady in question sounds disturbed, but I don&#8217;t see how one can say she sounds so disturbed as to not be capable of forming judgements.  If we assume that the right to suicide is to be accepted, then presumably we have to accept that the right will encompass people who feel mental distress and inability to cope with life, as well as those suffering from merely physical pain.</p>
<p>It is easy to say that the doctors are to blame for enabling this person to end her own life, but fundamentally if society in general cannot comfort these people enough then placing the burden on them to make the up or down call is hardly fair.  The problem needs to be solved well before it ever reaches the emergency room.</p>
<p>Indeed, I would say the call was [i]arguably[/i] correct here (although not necessarily so).  Ms Wooltorton intended to commit suicide, and picked a painful way of doing so.  She asked the doctors to manage her self-inflicted pain, but not to save her life, apparently safe in the knowledge that the law gave her the right to do that.  Had the doctors kept her alive, what guarantees would they have that she would not repeat the attempt but, next time, without the call to 999?  Lives saved nil, human suffering significantly increased.</p>
<p>Whether this was the right call or not, I am not possibly qualified to say.  But I will not by any means condemn the doctors for making a reasonable judgement call in a difficult case at the end of a young girl&#8217;s troubled life.  It was not their job to prevent her suicide.</p>
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		<title>By: Bedd Gelert</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7311</link>
		<dc:creator>Bedd Gelert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7311</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not so much suggesting that there has to be a &#039;slippery slope&#039;. Using that rather tenuous M4 link, I&#039;m not suggesting that starting off down the road to giving people an element of choice means we will necessarily end up with people practically being pushed into against their will, and you end up in Wales without realising it.

Merely that people making these decisions have a bit of an understanding that greater freedom of choice for the individual may carry some greater risks. So one should proceed with care when legislating so that the inevitable downsides can be assessed before any further legislative decisions.

Just because &#039;assisted dying&#039; carries some unwelcome problems is not necessarily reason not to do it if the benefits to society as a whole hugely outweigh the risks - merely that we might need to get to know our new town, far out from the London &#039;status quo&#039; before venturing even further and finding it is not to our liking to be so far from the &#039;comfort zone&#039; of the metropolis.

Since as with life, once one has left the capital it may not be the easiest thing to return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not so much suggesting that there has to be a &#8216;slippery slope&#8217;. Using that rather tenuous M4 link, I&#8217;m not suggesting that starting off down the road to giving people an element of choice means we will necessarily end up with people practically being pushed into against their will, and you end up in Wales without realising it.</p>
<p>Merely that people making these decisions have a bit of an understanding that greater freedom of choice for the individual may carry some greater risks. So one should proceed with care when legislating so that the inevitable downsides can be assessed before any further legislative decisions.</p>
<p>Just because &#8216;assisted dying&#8217; carries some unwelcome problems is not necessarily reason not to do it if the benefits to society as a whole hugely outweigh the risks &#8211; merely that we might need to get to know our new town, far out from the London &#8216;status quo&#8217; before venturing even further and finding it is not to our liking to be so far from the &#8216;comfort zone&#8217; of the metropolis.</p>
<p>Since as with life, once one has left the capital it may not be the easiest thing to return.</p>
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		<title>By: Bedd Gelert</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7310</link>
		<dc:creator>Bedd Gelert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 22:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7310</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t, and given our performance against the All Blacks over the years, is worrying news indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t, and given our performance against the All Blacks over the years, is worrying news indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Howell</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7309</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Howell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7309</guid>
		<description>Reading and Swindon are purgatory. You look up to Westminster and you see graffitti scrawled saying,

&quot;Assisted dying! Assisted dying! No extra charge! All on the NHS!&quot;

and you look down to Llanelly and Pembrokeshire and  see,

&quot;Leave us alone! Leave us alone!We know when it&#039;s time to go!&quot;

and you become so hopelessly confused by London,Heaven, that when you see St Peter with his hand extended in welcome,and a smile on his face, you decide not to take advantage of this petty exercise in heavenly consumerism and you try to do it yourself.

The net effect is that you end up back in purgatory, on a section of the mental health act, all the more determined to make a better go of it next time.

You have forgotten all about the religious exhortation of West Wales, that it is best to wait in a queue until your number is up, and not make a fuss about it.

This is the whole purpose of the line out in Rugby football. You form a queue; (in fact you form two in case there has been a mistake of some sort) you wait for your number to be shouted, and you jump for joy,saying,

&quot;It&#039;s my number! It&#039;s my number! My number is up.&quot;

Then you catch a ball, quite by chance, and you know you are in..... Heaven.

In fact you can be quite certain that you are in heaven because there is an Irishman by the side of the pitch called Coach (or Baroness Murphy) saying how horrified she is at the handling of the laws.  That Bedd Gelert, (and I know you are a fictitious Welshman) is how you know the coach is St.Peter,or Baroness Murphy, waiting at the gates, for you to be cheered home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading and Swindon are purgatory. You look up to Westminster and you see graffitti scrawled saying,</p>
<p>&#8220;Assisted dying! Assisted dying! No extra charge! All on the NHS!&#8221;</p>
<p>and you look down to Llanelly and Pembrokeshire and  see,</p>
<p>&#8220;Leave us alone! Leave us alone!We know when it&#8217;s time to go!&#8221;</p>
<p>and you become so hopelessly confused by London,Heaven, that when you see St Peter with his hand extended in welcome,and a smile on his face, you decide not to take advantage of this petty exercise in heavenly consumerism and you try to do it yourself.</p>
<p>The net effect is that you end up back in purgatory, on a section of the mental health act, all the more determined to make a better go of it next time.</p>
<p>You have forgotten all about the religious exhortation of West Wales, that it is best to wait in a queue until your number is up, and not make a fuss about it.</p>
<p>This is the whole purpose of the line out in Rugby football. You form a queue; (in fact you form two in case there has been a mistake of some sort) you wait for your number to be shouted, and you jump for joy,saying,</p>
<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s my number! It&#8217;s my number! My number is up.&#8221;</p>
<p>Then you catch a ball, quite by chance, and you know you are in&#8230;.. Heaven.</p>
<p>In fact you can be quite certain that you are in heaven because there is an Irishman by the side of the pitch called Coach (or Baroness Murphy) saying how horrified she is at the handling of the laws.  That Bedd Gelert, (and I know you are a fictitious Welshman) is how you know the coach is St.Peter,or Baroness Murphy, waiting at the gates, for you to be cheered home.</p>
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		<title>By: baronesssmurphy</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7308</link>
		<dc:creator>baronesssmurphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7308</guid>
		<description>Bedd Gelert, As always you put your point so charmingly it&#039;s tempting to agree. But I think we can, with care and deliberation, set boundaries, decide when a specific act is something which is justified and indeed legal. Rather as the Director of Public Prosecution was able to describe in some depth when an act might be considered worthy of prosecution and when not in cases of assisted suicide, it is possible to reach a consensus about what the majority feel is a morally appropriate act and what is not. I don&#039;t really accept the &#039;slippery slope&#039; argument that once you make something possible the adverse consequences will inevitably slip in behind. That is why most pieces of legislation are backed up by statutory instruments, practice guidelines and often, codes of practice too, which enable a regime of safeguards to protect us from the slippery slope and untoward consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bedd Gelert, As always you put your point so charmingly it&#8217;s tempting to agree. But I think we can, with care and deliberation, set boundaries, decide when a specific act is something which is justified and indeed legal. Rather as the Director of Public Prosecution was able to describe in some depth when an act might be considered worthy of prosecution and when not in cases of assisted suicide, it is possible to reach a consensus about what the majority feel is a morally appropriate act and what is not. I don&#8217;t really accept the &#8216;slippery slope&#8217; argument that once you make something possible the adverse consequences will inevitably slip in behind. That is why most pieces of legislation are backed up by statutory instruments, practice guidelines and often, codes of practice too, which enable a regime of safeguards to protect us from the slippery slope and untoward consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: Croft</title>
		<link>http://lordsoftheblog.net/2009/12/19/misunderstanding-the-mental-health-act-and-living-wills/comment-page-1/#comment-7307</link>
		<dc:creator>Croft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:38:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lordsoftheblog.net/?p=4172#comment-7307</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know the specific case so it&#039;s hard to comment except in general terms. The system seems to do shades of grey badly. Having in the past sometimes ignored the proper wishes of patients (on the doctor knows best principle) it seems to have gone to the other extreme and now they appear reluctant/nervous about stepping in.

More clarity in the law would I think help everyone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know the specific case so it&#8217;s hard to comment except in general terms. The system seems to do shades of grey badly. Having in the past sometimes ignored the proper wishes of patients (on the doctor knows best principle) it seems to have gone to the other extreme and now they appear reluctant/nervous about stepping in.</p>
<p>More clarity in the law would I think help everyone.</p>
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